Scott

The year was 1615, and Miguel de Cervantes had just finished his masterwork, Don Quixote de la Mancha, and the printing press, invented some 200 years earlier, was contributing to a flourishing artistic and literary enlightenment throughout the whole of Europe, and Cervantes was instrumental in helping make Spain the center of world literature. As I walk among these trees here in Spain, it's not difficult to imagine Don Quixote and his faithful squire Sancho Panza, chivalrously questing across the Spanish countryside in search of truth, goodness, purity, kindness. And though Don Quixote’s quest was difficult and profound, somehow Cervantes managed through his literature to examine really profound truths and explore our very human condition. Great literature, great art allows us to examine ourselves in new, hopefully truthful, and sometimes painful ways. In this episode of A Marvelous Work, we have traveled all the way to the countryside of Spain near Barcelona, as part of an in-depth search for internal evidences for the divinity of the Book of Mormon. But when I talked with the director of this program, he said, “Why Spain?”

Scott

And I was like, “Well, I can give you one really good reason. I served a two-year mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, right here in España. And, you know, I was a young teenager. I was very impressionable. The Book of Mormon really impacted my life. I grew to love the people, the culture, the language. So, you know, I mean, maybe we should consider going back there.” To which he responded something like, “How will that help me find internal evidences for the Book of Mormon?” Now that's fair. That's a good question. I'm glad you asked. You see, Spain is the leading exporter of olive oil. Olive oil is extracted from thousands of olive orchards all throughout Spain. Olive oil, as you know, is used in cooking and flavoring food. It's got a lot of health benefits. It's been used in healing. So if we plan to discover and understand symbolic and literary evidences within the Book of Mormon, we should start in España with Jacob 5.

Scott

I'm Scott Christopher. And in this episode of A Marvelous Work, we are going to take a deep dive into the text of the Book of Mormon in search of literary evidence for its divinity. We'll talk to researchers, scholars, horticulturists, and people of faith. We'll also invite you to experiment upon the words of the book, and consider for yourself the evidence of A Marvelous Work.

Scott

As I begin my search for literary evidence in the Book of Mormon, I first want to investigate its claim of rich Hebraic symbolism. And what better way to do so than to speak with a Jewish rabbi?

Scott

This is awesome.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Thank you.

Scott

Very unique experience. I'm here with Rabbi Joe Charnes. As you know, we've been on a journey looking for quote–unquote evidence about the Book of Mormon, which you hold a copy in your hand right there. Is that your own personal copy?

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Yes, sir.

Scott

And where did you who gave you that? Where did that come from?

Rabbi Joe Charnes

This I got from one of the wards. I regularly attend your ward meetings.

Scott

Have you had a chance to read any parts of the Book of Mormon? Are you familiar with its content at all?

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Yes, I've looked at certainly the portions you asked me to in in the book of Jacob.

Scott

Right, okay. So, for that, that one, for example, seems to be really rich. It kind of jumps off the page as feeling very connected to the Bible, like it sounds biblical. And by that, I mean the Jewish Bible. It sounds like the first five books of the Old Testament.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Yeah.

Scott

So what's your take on that in.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

In terms of, we have a couple of options. We have Hebraisms, which are essentially a Hebrew expression with the Hebrew grammar and syntax and structure.

Scott

Yes, yes.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

That is basically recreated in the target language, in our case English.

Scott

Right.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

There are Hebraic or linguistic Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon seems fairly apparent. And your LDS scholars have certainly written on this. So very often you'll have a series of “ands” extra “ands.”

Scott

Yeah.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

There's a grammatical function to the “and” that is necessary in the Hebrew that's not in the Greek or English. So when you see it repeated in the Greek, you know that's a Hebraic term. In Helaman chapter three, one sentence has I think it was 17 “ands.” When it's translated, it's telling you there is a basis or a root that sounds ancient. In the Jewish mind, when we read a text that has language that is curious, peculiar. We don't like – many scholars in the scholarly academic world – we don't try to edit our texts.

We say that this structure, as clumsy or as peculiar as it is, or as repetitive as it is, it's intentional. Every word is necessary. Every word is foundational to more sacred understanding, a sacred growth. Had we said it in a simple way or a more literate way, you would have missed the point. And the symbolism or the symbolisms that you find often in the texts of the Book of Mormon are very rich and very profound. Many may not see, many may see, you're reading into this and I say up front, absolutely. We all read into the text.

Scott

That’s what we’re supposed to do. Right, yeah.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Through our own prism. If I get a Buddhist to read it, he will see different symbolism.

Scott

Yes.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

If you just want to see it on the simple level, you're right. But I don't believe, in general, that any sacred text that is grounded in wisdom is simple. There has to be something more. We have the olive here, and there's a grafting on from the wild olive branches to the tame olive branches. Sometimes we die out and we need that grafting on. And if you read, I mean, it's so beautiful. There's a verse in it, verse 22. The Lord of the vineyard says unto his servant, he says, counsel me not.

Scott

For I knew that it was poor…

Rabbi Joe Charnes

It was a poor spot of ground. Wherefore I said unto thee, I have nourished it this long time, and thou behold, that it hath brought forth much fruit. It's that same idea. I am impoverished, I am broken, I am lost. Beaten down. But it can still produce fruit. I am beaten, crushed for light. I can still have that light, that hope, that presence, that beauty.

Scott

Love that. Yeah.

Scott

So, in the allegory in Jacob 5, there's a lot of talk about the master of the vineyard grafting in tame, tame olive branches onto a wild tree and wild olive branches onto a tame tree. Is there any anything symbolically in there that jumps out to you as a rabbi? As a member of the Jewish faith? is there anything, even just personally from the grafting discussion, that..?

Rabbi Joe Charnes

The grafting we know is central to this section of Jacob. Grafting for me is something I always hope and seek to do because it allows me to help sprout new branches, strengthen my roots and grow as a person of soul. It can compromise us. If you graft onto something that isn't healthy or healing…

Scott

Right.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

…it will compromise your root…

Scott

Right.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

…but it also, in the end, can heal and allow you to rebuild if you prune and if you dig and if you nourish.

Scott

I think I'm speaking for many, I would hope, that it's been great to have your perspective, because we have talked about literary evidences with people that are, not necessarily secular, but are coming at it from an academic standpoint and from research. And whereas your perspective is, is, I would say even purely, uh, theistic, it's just religion. You're a rabbi. And to be able to hear that from you and your take and your spin on pretty much the same questions I've been asking others has been very eye opening. And I hope very enlightening for everyone too. And I'm just, uh, really, this has been really fun. I thank you very much.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Thank you.

Scott

Yeah. My pleasure.

Rabbi Joe Charnes

Shalom.

Scott

Shall we? Shall we Shalom?

Scott

That was just fantastic. I've never talked to a rabbi before, especially about the Book of Mormon and some of the things that he said were just, I don't know, heartwarming, I guess, in a way. So, speaking of Hebrews, um, we're now going to talk about Hebraisms as we continue our search for literary evidences in the Book of Mormon. And to do that, we're going to talk to Professor Don Parry, who's an expert in the field of Hebraisms. He's written books on it, and our journey brings us back to Utah, and we're going to head south to Provo. So, let's do this thing.

Scott

I am here with Don Parry, author of Preserved in Translation and a lot of other books. This is, I can probably attest that this is the narrowest book that you've possibly ever written.

Don Parry

Probably so (laughs).

Scott

So, you are a researcher, an author, a professor at BYU. Tell us a little bit about what, who you are.

Don Parry

I teach the Hebrew Bible, which is the Old Testament, but it's in the original language. I studied at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. I research and published things for scholars and scholarly works and international presses on the Hebrew Bible. It's what I do. It's my job.

Scott

Well, what are Hebraisms and why would it matter to us on our quest to find evidence for the Book of Mormon?

Don Parry

We're talking about Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon, and Hebraisms are Hebrew-like structures, uh, poetic parallelisms. They are figures-of-speech or literary techniques that survive the translation and that are in the Book of Mormon.

Scott

What are some of your favorite Hebraisms from the Book of Mormon?

Don Parry

One was not even known until the 1950s, when a Jewish scholar, whose name is Moses Seidel, he demonstrated that one way that ancient prophets would cite or quote another prophet is to switch a key phrase with another key phrase. And he gave some examples from the Old Testament. There are maybe eight or ten examples of this same thing going on in the Book of Mormon. And I'll give you one example. Isaiah the prophet wrote “precept upon precept; line upon line.” Notice the order of that. Nephi cited Isaiah and switched those key terms. And he said, “line upon line, precept upon precept.” And that's found in 2 Nephi 28:30.

Scott

And in that verse he's not saying…

Don Parry

Right.

Scott

Isaiah said…

Don Parry

Right.

Scott

This is their way of quoting someone.

Don Parry

Yes. And you were supposed to know the scriptures well enough to know, oh Nephi is citing Isaiah right now. And when we quote someone, we will say, and President so-and-so or Professor so-and-so said this and we'll use quote marks, and then we'll have a bibliographic footnote.

Scott

Uh, have you brought any other examples?

Don Parry

Our names. There are some Hebrew names in the Book of Mormon that were unknown to the world when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. I'll give you one example that I really, really like. And it's the name Alma. Now, when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, as you know, the name Alma appears many, many times there. And some of the people who didn't understand the Book of Mormon thought maybe Joseph had borrowed the word Alma from the Latin or the Spanish.

Scott

Alma means soul. Soul, yes, spirit.

Don Parry

And they thought, okay, he must have borrowed it from the Latin. But the name Alma was discovered in a legal deed in a cave south of the Dead Sea Scrolls caves, and it was discovered, and it has the name Alma, the Son of Judah, written in Hebrew.

Scott

So, there it is.

Don Parry

A Hebrew word. Now this this letter or deed is dated to around 132 A.D. so it's centuries before Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon.

Scott

So, one of the ones that I really liked, and there's so many that are so cool in here that I had never heard of, and I can't find it right now, but I remember it had to do with cognates or cognate. There it is. Cognate verbs and objects. Explain to me what that is. Or explain to us.

Don Parry

Uh, that that's a grammatical form where the noun and the verb are the same root. For example, to build buildings, to dream a dream, to sing a song, to curse with a curse.

Scott

Let me remind you of some. You've got it here. Um, you know, uh, taxed with a tax. Yes. Uh, fear exceedingly with fear (laughs).

Don Parry

Yes.

Scott

Shielded by shields. Now, those are the ones that you found in the Book of Mormon. Yes.

Don Parry

This is very, very Hebrew. And here they are in the Book of Mormon. And they survived the translation into English, showing Joseph Smith was an amazing translator. I mean, he translated by the power of God.

Scott

Thank you. I mean, there's fifteen or twenty right there. Yes. And I read those every day in the Book of Mormon. And I now, I know. Yeah, that's how they did it in Hebrew.

Don Parry

Let me tell you one more.

Scott

Okay.

Don Parry

Um, and it came to pass. That seems so innocent “and it came to pass.” And yet it is a Hebraism.

Scott

But I mean, what makes it so Hebrew? And because it's worked its way into the English lexicon, at least from a biblical or religious standpoint. So how would I know that that really is.

Don Parry

Oh, it's found in historical narratives, not so much in poetry. So it's found in Joshua, Judges, Ruth. Chronicles, Chronicles, and those books, not as often in Isaiah or Psalms or Proverbs, the poetry. And it has to do with narrative. This happened and it came to pass. This happened and it came to pass. This happened. Very Hebrew.

Scott

Yeah, not exactly 19th century North American English. That's awesome.

Don Parry

Hebraisms constitute yet another significant evidence of the antiquity of the Book of Mormon, that it did come forth out of the Jerusalem Hebrew speaker world. And please, let me just add this. Far more consequential than Hebraisms are these three things about the Book of Mormon. One it’s Jesus Christ focused. It really is. Two, you can know of its truthfulness by the power of the Holy Ghost, and three, it changes lives. It's a life-changing work.

Scott

Well, Don, once again, thank you so much. This has been really an honor. Just really, really appreciate it. This is so great to be able to continue to amass this evidence. Thank you so much.

Don Parry

What a privilege and opportunity. Thank you.

Scott

You got it.

Scott

So, as we continue our search for literary evidence within the Book of Mormon, we are now going to head back to Spain and investigate the Allegory of the Olive Tree from Jacob 5.

Scott

The Book of Mormon contains a rich and complex allegory about an olive tree. According to the text in Jacob 5, it was originally written by a now lost biblical prophet named Zenos and was copied from an ancient record Lehi's family took with them from Jerusalem to the Promised Land of the Americas. The allegory uses an olive tree as a metaphor to describe the house of Israel and God's dealings with them. In the allegory, the master of the vineyard has a tree that's producing bad fruit. He doesn't want to lose the tree and especially its roots, so he plans to save it by pruning and grafting its branches. Grafting is a process of fusing a branch from one tree to the stem or trunk of another. What results is a plant that has the best properties of both trees. In this allegory, the master of the vineyard prunes and grafts, branches and even plants, some in the nethermost part of the vineyard. As the allegory continues, we learn that in spite of the efforts of the vineyard master and his servant, the whole vineyard, all the trees become corrupt.

Scott

Looking at this allegory from a historical perspective, we see the scattering of Israel in such events as the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests of the Jewish diaspora, where they were carried away from the Land of Israel. Within the Book of Mormon, we learn that Lehi and his seed were led away from Jerusalem because of the wickedness of its people. The Lord of the vineyard planted the Nephites and the Lamanites in a good spot of ground. Yet in the end, wickedness prevailed and the Nephite civilization was completely destroyed. The allegory says that the wild fruit of the last had overcome that part of the tree, which brought forth good fruit, even that the branch had withered away and died. This branch that had good and bad fruit, the Nephites and Lamanites, eventually was fully corrupted. The vineyard master is saddened to lose his vineyard, and so plans for a final pruning and grafting of the scattered olive branches back into the main tree. In the Book of Mormon, the Allegory of the Olive tree was meant to teach and remind the house of Israel that God, the true master of the vineyard, remembers his covenants and promises he has made to his people, symbolized by the olive tree.

Scott

Hello, Lluís. Lluís, Lluís. Okay. Very good. Uh, Scott here, we're, of course, at, uh, this amazing, uh, olive orchard called l'Arion. And Lluís is the, uh, is the owner and whatnot. Uh, this tree I see behind us here is roped off, and, uh, it looks fairly significant. What is the significance of this tree? How old is it?

Lluís (dubbed)

It is the oldest olive tree that we know about, that is dated by scientific methods. To be honest, it is not a tree that is very strong.

Scott

So, could you in theory, since it's not producing as much as you would like it to after 1700 years? Could you theoretically graft younger, newer, stronger branches into it and then see it produce more fruit?

Lluís (dubbed)

Um, it could be done, but only from shoots from the lowest part of the tree. Recovering the upper part of the tree is very difficult. If we want the tree to recover and regain its vigor and its strength, it is better to create a tree starting from a new branch. So, in the end, the trunk is a sponge that absorbs the majority of the nutrients and the strength that the two trees have.

Scott

It's amazingly similar to Jacob 5, what he's saying. Tell me how you nourish the trees. That's something that we find in this allegory is the master of the vineyard, is nourishing the olive trees.

Lluís (dubbed)

Uh, the olive tree is basically fed by the roots in the soil and the cultivating of olive trees. Basically, what we do is provide nutrients to the soil. So they are available to the olive tree. For this rain is very important.

Scott

In the Book of Mormon, it talks about, uh, a tree, for example, being planted in a bad part of the vineyard of the orchard on bad soil. Would an olive tree grow in bad soil, and if so, what would be the difference between planting it in good soil?

Lluís (dubbed)

Um, let's see. It would definitely be a tree that would have less vegetation. It would be smaller. It would be, um, uh, less productive. But I think that if there is a tree that can adapt to bad soil, it is the olive tree.

Scott

So, you have, these are all obviously, I think, tame, cultivated olive trees. Um, are there wild olive trees that just grow on their own? And is there a difference between those?

Lluís (dubbed)

Yeah, there are several differences. The main difference is in the variety. When we are in a field of cultivated olive trees, the variety is chosen. It is a variety that the farmer reproduces because he knows it will satisfy his needs. On the other hand, a variety resulting from spontaneous vegetation, it will definitely be less productive, and the oil will not be as rich.

Scott

Guys, thank you so much. This has been so eye opening and so cool for what it is that we're trying to accomplish. Thank you. We'll hopefully we'll get you a copy of the Book of Mormon before we leave. (We will.) Um, and maybe we'll see you again sometime. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Lluís

You’re welcome.

Scott

Oh, nice. Throwing a little English for us.

Scott

You know, it's interesting to see how accurate the allegory is from a purely horticultural standpoint. But there are a few things within the allegory that are somewhat unexpected. For example. Why are the olive trees in a vineyard and not an orchard? The answer is both beautiful and profound. According to studies of early Christianity by Jesuit priest Robert Murray, the iconography of both the grapevine and the olive tree point to Christ and were often used interchangeably. The Hebrew word often translated vineyard in relation to grapes, also has broader meaning in the ancient world that includes orchards or gardens. Additionally, it wasn't uncommon in the ancient world to plant olive trees in grape vineyards. The Book of Luke in the New Testament mentions a fig tree planted in a vineyard. Again, these are details an American farm boy in the early 1800s would likely not know.

Scott

You know, it's amazing. Everywhere I've traveled so far, there's been a new piece of information or evidence that just continues to add to my appreciation and love for the Book of Mormon, its divinity, if you will. It reminds me a little bit of a verse in Alma 30 that talks about all things denote that there is a God. The Allegory of the Olive Tree is a beautiful example of this evidence that is both beautiful and inspiring at the same time. Moroni, the last prophet in the Book of Mormon, invites us to read the book and ask God if it's true. I've accepted Moroni’s invitation and have made a personal, prayerful study of the Book of Mormon. I felt the powerful, yet peaceful. witness from God of the truthfulness of this book. Yet this spiritual witness is nearly impossible to explain to someone else unless they've gone through it themselves.

Scott

As a missionary, I saw this happen for people who accepted Moroni's invitation. Miraculous stories of conversion due to the Book of Mormon itself are myriad. They form an amazing body of evidence from real people with real lives that cannot be ignored.

Scott

That is so beautiful. Here at the Parc de la Ciutadella in Barcelona, my mission home. I'm here to meet up with sister Julia Treviño. She's a longtime member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who has a really cool story about how the Book of Mormon impacted her and her husband's lives. So, I'm going to go meet up with her.

Scott (subtitles)

Hi, Julia

Julia (subtitles)

How are you?

Scott (subtitles)

Very good, thank you. It is so good to see you.

Julia (subtitles)

Likewise.

Scott (subtitles)

Face to face.

Scott

Julia's husband, Carlos was hungry for the truth. And while they were newly married and without children, they packed all of their things in boxes, stored them at his parents’ house, and took off for India to learn about Hinduism. After a while there, they spent a year and a half in Turkey to study Islam. They then finally returned to Spain. It was while picking up their belongings from his parents’ house that something quite curious happened.

Julia (subtitles)

Well when we returned back to Spain to live with my in-laws. My brother-in-law had wrapped out books in boxes with tape and Carlos came and started to open it. He opened it and there it was. Oh! This book, the Book of Mormon. He started to read it in that room at his parents’ house, and cried his eyes out. I thought, he had gone crazy. And he did not come out of the room until he finished the Book of Mormon.

Scott (subtitles)

What did he tell you about why he was crying and crying?

Julia (subtitles)

Because he felt something very special, that is, as if he had found what he was longing for. All of his life had been like a search for something he needed and didn’t have, and the Book of Mormon gave it to him. He didn’t need to investigate anymore, I mean, he then dedicated himself, in body and soul, to serve the Church.

We found out that the church met in an apartment on Castillejos Street. We went on Saturday to Castillejos Street. We went there, there was a concierge, a lady who was at the entrance. We told her, well, we showed her the Book of Mormon, and she said, yes, they meet here on the first floor, but today they are not there. Besides, they are very strange people.

Scott (subtitles)

(laughs)

Julia (subtitles)

And then Carlos insisted, but where can we find them? She said, well, they will be here tomorrow. Tomorrow is Sunday, tomorrow works.

Scott (subtitles)

Perfect, tomorrow.

Julia (subtitles)

And Carlos insisted, but where can we find them? This lady must have thought we were annoying, right?

Scott (subtitles)

Yes, of course. (laughs)

Julia (subtitles)

And she said, look, they are always in Plaza Catalunya with a banner. But it was really late and I said to him if we are going to come tomorrow, Sunday, we don’t need to go today. No, no, no, no. No, he said, I want to see them today. To Plaza Catalunya. We arrived at Plaza Catalunya, the missionaries were not there. Going down the Rambla, I was wearing high heels, I was already a little tired of my husband, and I told him, hey, listen Carlos, if we are going to see them tomorrow…No, no. And it was already getting dark and I said, well look, I’m leaving, you can stay, and he let me go. I mean, his need to find them was so great, what he was feeling, what he had felt, what he wanted, that he couldn’t wait.

Scott (subtitles)

It is a very strong impulse.

Julia (subtitles)

He couldn’t wait.

Scott (subtitles)

In the end he found them.

Julia (subtitles)

Yes, yes.

Scott (subtitles)

Ah.

Julia (subtitles)

He found them.

Scott (subtitles)

And what did he say to them when he found them?

Julia (subtitles)

Well, I think he told them, What can I do to get baptized? And then, the missionary almost fell over.

Scott (subtitles)

(laughs)

Julia (subtitles)

He said, no, no. He said, I want to be baptized. And then they said, no, no, before we have to teach you. He said, oh okay.

Julia (subtitles)

Well, if Carlos hadn’t read the Book of Mormon, I don’t know what my family would be like today.

Julia (subtitles)

Well, here I have some photos. Look here is Carlos.

Scott (subtitles)

Who is this pretty girl?

Julia (subtitles)

This is when Carlos met me. That’s how he fell in love with me.

Scott (subtitles)

What a young lady.

Julia (subtitles)

(laughs)

Julia (subtitles)

This is San Francisco, here Carlos was already a little sick.

Scott (subtitles)

And how long ago did he die?

Julia (subtitles)

6 years.

Scott (subtitles)

And 6 years

Julia (subtitles)

Yes

Scott (subtitles)

And Alzheimer’s?

Julia (subtitles)

Alzheimer’s. Yes

Scott

I'm just sitting here sharing pictures with her in Parc de la Ciutadella. But 36, 37 years ago when I was here as a missionary, I don't think I would have ever imagined that I'd be here and be with somebody who found a Book of Mormon in an old box, and ran and found the missionaries and got baptized within very, very short time. And now I'm sitting here with his widow, and we're going through pictures of them at the temple being sealed in Switzerland. Um, baptisms. He was a bishop. He was in the stake high council, elders quorum president. And when I say all of that, and I asked her a minute ago how much the Book of Mormon has impacted or changed her life, it's because of that sweet, precious, marvelous work that I'm able to be here. And we're here from opposite sides of the world, laughing and enjoying a really cool time together. Um, and when I think about all the copies of the Books of Mormon that I presented to people in the streets of Barcelona and in other places around here. I kind of hope and pray that maybe someday, one of those copies has made it somewhere that somebody like her has found it. And I'm sorry. Lo siento.

Julia (subtitles)

It’s true, there are many cases where the Book of Mormon appears where you least expect it. It was sassy. It came with the Don. They don't know.

Scott (subtitles)

Thank you so much, seriously. It’s been so nice to meet up with you today.

Julia (subtitles)

Whenever you need me, I’m here to help.

Scott (subtitles)

Thank you very much, really.

Scott

I never could have imagined that I would have had these opportunities to see and understand the Book of Mormon like this. And I'm so glad that you were able to join me on this episode. We're not done by a long shot. There's still a lot to discover and unravel and explore within this book. A lot of places to go and a lot of people to talk to. I'm Scott Christopher, thanks for joining me in this episode. We'll be back again soon to uncover more evidence and to hear the stories and testimonies of those people whose lives have been forever changed by a marvelous work.